Episode 630: Reaching Recovery: Lyme Disease Healing, Herbs, Nervous System Support & the Long Game

Hello, welcome. Hello, everybody. Welcome. We are so excited you are here with us today. It is day 11 of the Cellular Healing Boot Camp. We are doing a happy hour live conversation classroom with Matt and Rich of the Tick Boot Camp podcast. Welcome, Matt and Rich.

Thank you, Eliza. It's great to be here, and it's great to be here with not just you, with all the folks who are Joining us for the happy hour.

Yeah, absolutely. And, um, it is a happy hour live classroom today. We're going to be talking about reaching recovery and how to get there and how to stay there, which is also so important. But if you just started the boot camp, it's okay. It's a self-paced program. So if you're not on day 11, that's okay. Let me know in the chat. I want to make sure it's working. Let me know where you're from and what day of the boot camp you are on. We're so honored, Matt and Rich. This is our 3rd Cellular Healing Boot Camp and also the 3rd time you guys are joining us, which is such an honor. The fact that the 2 of you have interviewed nearly 600 people in the Lyme space is a big deal, and you definitely have some perspective. And experience to teach everybody today. We're very excited.

So, Liza, we've actually interviewed more than 600 people. We've only published about 600 episodes, but we've actually interviewed substantially more than 600. And just for those who are not aware of who we are at Tick Boot Camp, Tick Boot Camp is a passion project that Matt and I started about 6 years ago, Matt?

Yep, 2019.

And the reason we started Tick Boot Camp is I had a bad experience after a tick bite, and that followed a very bad experience Matt had that he and I had worked together after he became chronically ill and he almost lost his job. And Lyme disease, although it was something I was aware of generally, I certainly did not know it was a chronic disease, and I certainly didn't know it could do to someone what it did to Matt. And just to give folks a context, Matt was an uber-fit, long-distance runner who went from being unbelievably healthy and unbelievably fit and unbelievably vibrant to being bedbound and obese and bald and, you know, and all kinds of things that were so bad that Matt couldn't leave his bed without peeing in a cup. He couldn't get out of bed to go to the bathroom. He couldn't— he couldn't be— he couldn't shower. And the story that I tell folks is that there was a gap in time between when I met with Matt after he had gotten sick and before he had gotten sick. And if I had not seen— if I didn't know that Matt was the person I was sitting across from when he came to my office, I would not have recognized him had I seen him in the supermarket. His appearance changed so radically he would not have been recognizable. And after Matt and I had worked together on his employment-related case, I was bitten by a tick. I went to my doctors. I first called Matt and looked for help, and he couldn't help me. He didn't know how to help me. I went to my doctor's office. My doctor was incompetent, and I was very anxious that I was going to become like Matt. So one of the things that Matt did for me during the course of that portion of my journey with him is he actually set me up with interviews through folks on Instagram so that I could ask folks what I can do to prevent myself from getting sick. And I— we took notes on all of those interviews. We did about 30 interviews, Matt, at that time.

Yeah.

And we came up with a step-by-step guide on what to do to prevent yourself from getting sick from Lyme disease. And after I had that experience, one of the things that Matt had said to me was, A, we met a whole bunch of generous people, but even more importantly, we found the real experts in the community, the people who had been on a Lyme disease journey. And what Matt wanted to do is he wanted to create a platform for the real experts. And that's what TIC Boot Camp became. It became the place where people could come and tell their stories in a long-form podcast and then become— and then make those stories available and make those experiences available to people in the community. So it became the real expert platform. And it's been a wild experience. And one of the things that was really enjoyable for me is I was able to watch 2 things. The first thing I was able to do is I was able to watch folks who went on a healing journey share their journey and outline for us what they did in order to be able to get better. But the second thing that was a blessing for me is I was able to watch a very sick person, the guy who's sitting to my left, go from being uber sick, very, very sick, to ultimately get to a point where he recovered and he regained his health.

Wow.

So I look at this from a very different perspective. Not only did I watch the little things that people did and how they cobbled that together to ultimately regain their health, and maintain their health, but I also watched Matt get better. So I want Matt to now share what he did to get better. And I'd like to share with you what I observed about Matt getting better and how I think he ultimately was able to regain his health.

Yeah. Before I jump into what I did to heal-wise, is there anything you want me to share about my journey before I get into my healing protocol?

That's a great question. I mean, I think just kind of setting the stage, I think Rich shared a little bit of kind of like where you were when you were really at the sickest place. But if there's anything you want to add, you know, our community, we've got some people who might, you know, they may just be working part-time. Some people do not have the capacity to work. We have some people who are bedridden, who have been sick over 20 years. There's a whole spectrum, right, in the community of where everybody's at. So maybe just kind of fill us in a little bit more. Of where you were on your darkest days?

Yeah, for sure. So I started getting sick in, I'd say, around the late 2010s. So early 2010s, I should say. So 2011, 2012. And it started out as minor symptoms that were exercise-induced. By the time 2014 came, I was completely bedbound. I was having seizures. I was having hallucinations. I was having vision loss. To Rich's point, I couldn't walk to the bathroom without falling to the ground. My father helped me bathe because I was so unstable neurologically. He had to help me bathe myself. I was peeing in a cup. And at that time, I didn't have a diagnosis. And we were going to doctor after doctor after doctor. You know, the typical story all of you have heard. I remember one of the questions you had asked offline, Liza, made me think about a story where I've never shared this publicly before, but I remember being in a hospital bed after having a large seizure and being with my mother. She was with me, and we just hung up the phone with my grandmother, and they were praying for me. So my mother and my grandmother were praying for me. I was very neurologically impaired. And after we hung up, my grandmother, on the television screen were the giant words, healed. And my mom and my grandmother were like, from that point forward, we knew God was going to heal you. I didn't believe it, candidly. I was so unwell, I didn't believe it, and I should have. But looking back, they still bring the story up. But to me, that just shows how scared and how hopeless I was. And in having these conversations with people, like, we just met Olivia Flowers again for the second time this week. And the first thing she said to me was, when my family was inflicted with Lyme, We didn't realize this community that exists. We didn't realize that there were so many of you out there. And I wish we had this community when my family first came down with Lyme disease. And that's where I was. I didn't know that the community existed. I didn't have the support. I didn't have Richard on my side as my partner. And that's kind of how I was at my worst. Now, piggybacking off that, kind of going into my healing journey, if you'd like, Eliza, I could jump into that piece next.

Yes, please. We— I know that there's people that want to hear that. Yes, tell us about that.

Yeah. So what happened first was I got a diagnosis in late 2014. And it was thankfully to an ER nurse who saw a similar experience in a football player, a professional football player. So he pulled my parents aside and said, I think your son has neurological Lyme disease. You really got to push for these tests. And I'm going to urge the doctors here to continue down that avenue. Testing isn't great. He knew enough back then. And thankfully, that was the test that popped positive. And about a week later, I got a call, and I received IV antibiotics for 4 weeks. And that, for me, was the beginning of my journey. Now, I'll say it definitely had some valuable benefits for me, right? So, for example, I never had a seizure after stopping the IV antibiotics.

Okay.

I know it's not true for everybody. I know that's not true for all. But for me, within a 4-week window of IV antibiotics, the seizures subsided, and I never had paralysis again after that point. So, the paralysis and the seizures stopped. However, I still had severe pain, chronic pain, and cognitive dysfunction. I wasn't myself. I couldn't communicate. I couldn't think in a complex manner. As an IT professional, I still couldn't write complex code or even look at basic computer code. And I was still a shell of myself. And that's when the doctors had told me, hey, look, the Lyme is gone. You're cured from Lyme. It must be something else. And that was the beginning of my complex journey where I said I felt like an alien early on because I had nobody to help me navigate what I had— chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, right? All these things were being thrown at me— lupus, autoimmune disease— and it's just, you have to deal with it, you have to live with it. And I was getting worse and worse and worse and worse. I had steroids from a rheumatologist that made it significantly worse, which we now know, right? Of course, many of us know steroids suppress the immune system, and that can make us greatly, you know, more, more impaired. So that was the early stages. When we started Tick Boot Camp, tying this into Rich's story, I'm unwell. I'm through the IV antibiotics. We start Tick Boot Camp. We start having all these conversations. We start the podcast. Now, I am completely frozen in fear, right? I have this view of, hey, if I could just maintain my level of health, I can live a life and be okay because I was so afraid of getting worse. And Rich kept pushing me and I kept learning from Tick Boot Camp. Everybody we spoke to, you're not going to get better unless you try something. You have to try You have to push forward and you can't be afraid. And I know that's a very strong statement, but it's something that if I didn't have that lesson taught to me early on and I didn't slowly break through and start trying new things in a gradual way— because I want to be very clear, nobody, in my opinion, in our opinion from TIC Boot Camp, nobody should rush into an aggressive treatment protocol. We believe herxing is real. We believe herxing can be detrimental to your healing journey, and we think it can set you back and cause damage. We've seen it with so many guests on our podcast, people that ended up, you know, wheelchair-bound because of it. So I started slow and steady. We actually— one of our first guests that we had on the podcast was Dr. Bill Rawls. He was so kind. I remember when he called me, I was in the Stop and Shop parking lot. He called me on my cell phone and we were ecstatic. I called Rich like a little kid. I'm like, Rich, you won't believe who just called me. And he came on the podcast and that was the beginning of my learning lesson about all the power of herbs. And I brought the books. Unlocking Lyme was the book back then.

Yes.

Dr. sent me a signed copy, and I was so happy about that. Richie didn't get one, by the way, because, you know, Dr. Rawls likes me better than Rich.

He calls you— Dr. Rawls called you, Matt.

And then his newer book, The Cellular Wellness Solution, right? And this was the beginning. This was the beginning of my healing journey. And Dr. Rawls was gracious enough to invite me to be an ambassador in his ambassador program. And because I was so afraid, The lesson was on the HPA balance, and the way Dr. Rolls presented the topic was a way nobody else could have gotten through to me. He explained a 1-hour session while I was on a lunch break, and he talked about how it makes you feel normal again. And I'm not gonna do it justice because Dr. Rolls is brilliant, and I can't talk like Dr. Rolls, but he got me comfortable to try the HPA balance.

Well, did he really?

Well, Rich, okay, to be fair, he got me halfway there. So Rich is, is my guinea pig. He was my guinea pig. Now I'm his guinea pig. So anything I wanted to do to try to heal, I would make Rich do first. So I'd say, Rich, try this and tell me how you react. So whether it was CBD, whether it's HPA Balance, whether it was the Restore Kit, whether it was the Biome Boost, whether it was, you name it, anything we tried over the years, right, of various products and various other people that we've interviewed. So, you know, Rich tried the HPA Balance. I then had enough courage to try it, and the impact it had on my emotional state from a fear standpoint was transformational. It really helped reduce the fear I had to take the next steps to explore a wide variety of herbal protocols to get me where I am today. So I'll pause there. I love it. I don't wanna keep rambling, so I'll see what you think.

Yes. No, thank you. I love that so much. I think that we are stuck in fight or flight. It's not just the microbes, it's really the whole experience. And you actually touched on something so important, Matt. You said, after the antibiotics, you know, and the doctors are like, you're fine, you're good. It's almost like this other part of the journey where you're stuck in persistent chronic symptoms that no doctor can explain ends up kind of being Dr. Rawls' sweet spot.

Yep.

And that's why he really spoke to you. And with these books, The Cellular Wellness Solution and Unlocking Lyme, You know, he really does tell the story of this is happening. People don't know where to go. And so you are afraid. And I'm so glad you had Rich helping you and kind of like easing you into trying new things. Herbals in general, herbals are new, not new. I shouldn't say that. They're kind of new to the medical industry. A lot of doctors don't have comfort with herbs. And so a lot of our community, They have to bring something like Restore 180 or some of these herbs to the attention of their doctors. And it's hard, right? It's, it's, you gotta kind of like feel empowered and get yourself, you gotta do a lot of education, which is why we're doing this back-to-school bootcamp. You really have to start learning about this so that you can kind of explain it to your doctor, the road you wanna take. Did you have to do that too? Did you have to navigate that dance of like talking about herbal therapy? With some of your practitioners?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I became the crazy guy at work with my friend group. I mean, I was always a little nutty, right? You know, in a fun way. But, you know, it became that, oh, Matt's a hippie, right? Matt's into herbal medicine. Matt's doing all these things. Matt thinks herbs can cure his chronic illness. And you were viewed differently. But because of what we were learning and because of the hard evidence, again, I really— if people haven't read it, they need to read both books. You know, they have to read both Dr. Rose's books because I was able to push back and cite specific science-backed studies like Johns Hopkins and say, this is real, you're misinformed, and this is why I'm doing this. I'm not crazy. And it's hard to do that, right, when you're sick. But thankfully, because of the podcast, because of Richard's support, I had my mother and my grandmother supporting me, and I had to get my doctors on board, right? Yeah. Because at the time, I had my neurologist, I had my rheumatologist, I had my primary care physician, I had my infectious disease at the time, and they were very skeptical to these herbal protocols. My neurologist, who I landed with finally, was somebody I really trusted. And he was honest. He said to me, hey, I don't know much about these things. I'm reading what you're giving me, and I think you should give it a shot because, you know, we tried a lot with you. Not much has worked. And I really want to see you get better. And they seem like they have really good healing properties. And I really want to see how this works with you. And let me, let me walk you through this with, you know, with your, your what you're doing with a team of people. So we did it. You know, it was rough. I was still very afraid. The fear didn't go away overnight. I want to be clear. I mean, the fear got better. But I realized how much the fear was paralyzing me. And it took me probably, if I had to guess, and I wish I tracked this better, 4 to 6 months to get to the full dose of the Restore 180, you know, what I call the Restore Kit, right? The full protocol.

Yeah.

But I would do one pill, I would wait, and until I felt normal again, I would introduce another pill. And I went really, really, really, really slow to the point where I almost felt nothing almost every step of the way. And it can be done. I did this. It just takes a while. But from the time I got to the full dose, maybe 4 to 6 months in with almost minimal side effects or flares or herxing, I'd say about the 8-month mark from there is when I realized I went from being unable— and my brother brought this up just last week. He remembers walking with me down the block. And again, I went from running 10 miles a day to going 2 houses. And my brother goes, I remember you walked 2 houses down the block and you were so much in pain you couldn't speak. You came back and you were just done for days afterwards. That's how sick I was. prior to all of this.

Wow.

You know, I'd say about 8 months from the full dose, I was walking multiple miles. I mean, that to me is huge, right?

The pain—

I was making significant progress. And then fast forward, I'd say about, candidly, probably about 2 years is when I was able to be running again. So I was able to go back to running, doing cardio. I mean, we're talking like a 45-minute to an hour run, and that's something I never dreamed of doing again because of how unwell I was. And the main thing I did were herbs. Granted, I talked about the— I talked about the antibiotics. I talked about all that stuff, but it was a combination of the Restore Kit plus other deeper herbs. I love the HP Balance. I still take it to this day. I'll never stop the rest of my life. That helps regulate my nervous system, right? And one thing that I really reflect on that I made an observation with is I think many of us in this chronic Lyme space have this emotional dysregulation, and I think the disease causes it. And I really believe that we have to try to pay attention to that. And whether it's a combination of adapted gyms, whether it's a combination of, you know, your product, HPA Balance, but also other things. You really have to do things like even a gentle walk, even if you're able. And I understand not everybody's able to, but whatever you can do, you should do. Your stretches, you know, all the, you know, what is it that Dr. Rolls loves?

Tai—

not tai chi. What is he— qigong? I'm saying it wrong. Whatever Dr. Rolls— Eliza, help me. What does he love?

Qigong. Qigong. I think it's qigong. Qigong. Somebody will put it in the comments. I think it's called qigong.

And you can do it while laying in bed. Those things matter. They matter from the standpoint of moving your joints, moving your muscles, and they do have a positive impact on your emotions. And when your emotions are in a better place, your body's more primed to heal. So it really is that holistic approach. And for me, that really was the kickoff of my journey, and it was a multi-year journey to get to where I am today. And it was very slow and gradual. There was no point in which I said, I'm cured, I'm healed, or, oh, overnight I feel better. It was a very slow and steady process, but it was a drastic transformation. I love it.

Thank you. You know, sometimes too, people feel like, how long is this going to take, right? Um, and you know, you had expressed, like, when you talk about, like, um, your whole journey till when you were, like, feeling back to good. How long was that? Are we talking like 2 years, 3 years? I know some people are doing a very long time, but for how long on herbals at a therapeutic dose did you do, Matt?

Yeah, so once I got on that full dose of the Restore Kit, like I said, within 8 months, I was pretty much, you know, functioning from a cognitive standpoint. I was fully operational in my professional career again. I was moving and walking, and it took about I'd say 2 years to get to the point where I can really push myself from a cardio intensity standpoint. But overall, and this is where my views are, there's a lot of differing opinions. And I went probably, if I have to think back, I probably went 4 years on the full Restore kit because I just stayed on it. I'm like, I'm going to be on it for life.

Wow.

But then talking to Dr. Rawls and talking to others, and it's like, hey, you know what? The maintenance dose could be half a kit, right? So the morning, instead of doing it in the morning and at night, So I decided, let me, let me try that. So I think it was about the 4-year mark of feeling pretty good without any really major incidences. I had COVID a couple of times, had other things that were setbacks. And we can talk about the fear and the, am I ever, you know, all that crap that comes along with, with, you know, becoming sick with COVID and worrying, am I going to get sick again? Am I ever going to get better? Because that's real too.

Yeah.

But, you know, when it, when it came to that, I feel like it, it's just one of those things where you have to, you have to keep moving along and then say, let me do one by one, little by little, right? Because the little by little approach is always how I approach things. I went down, decreased one capsule, then the next night another capsule, then the next night another capsule. Within a few months, I was down to half the kit. But if I had an adverse response, meaning I didn't feel as well as I was prior, I planned on going back to the full dose of the Restore kit. But for me, I got myself to half the kit, just the morning dose, and I felt exactly the same. I didn't have any adverse effects. And I've been on that now probably for about a year and a half, Rich, if I had to guess. I mean, I really wish I tracked this stuff better, Okay.

Well, that's the thing. The thing is, when you're out there living life and you're doing all these things, it doesn't become the main focus of your life. That's why you're not tracking it so much.

Yeah.

And so I always try to explain to people what recovery looks like, and it's really— there is going to be a shift. I know people right now are in the thick of it, but there is this shift where, like, your Lyme, your chronic illness, your autoimmune, whatever you're challenged with, One day, it's just not the focus of your life, and that's probably why you're not tracking stuff. I mean, I always tell people about like even my own maintenance. I'm like, I think right now I take like half a dose of this and that, and I probably do it at least four to five days a week. I mean, that's the thing even with me. Like you, because you got your life back, it's not dominating your every day. When did that kind of tell us a little bit when you kind of made that shift, or did something happen when you're like, wow? Wow, you know what? I am in a recovered space. I'm not like, did the fear leave? Tell us a little bit about when you kind of realized that you were in a recovered space.

Yeah, I'll say, I think it's so hard to define the word recovered, right? Because to me, you're always saying, am I perfect? And no human on this planet is perfect. And I think when we're dealing with this recovery word, we view it as, I have to be perfect. I have to have zero fear. I have to have zero ailments. I have to have zero pain. I have to have zero setbacks. And that's just not reality for anybody on this planet, even people that are healthy that have never gone through a chronic health experience. So, when you factor that in, for me, it was really when I started doing more things, right? When I started to go traveling again, enjoying life and having joy.

I'm like filling in for the podcast for a year.

Yeah, that's a good point, right? So, let's back up a little bit. When we started to take boot camp, in the beginning, I was so unwell, Rich was running 80% of the podcast because I couldn't even make it on Zoom from my home to join. because I was still so sick. So, Rich was left running these episodes on his own. And then I remember Rich saying, Matt, you're showing up now. What happened? Right? And I was like, oh, you're right. Like, it didn't even click with me that, like, I just started showing up. I was feeling physically better. I was feeling mentally better. Right? And that was a big transformation that Rich saw because he was left holding the bag, candidly, for quite a while in the beginning. So—

It was rough as the guy who doesn't have Lyme disease running a Lyme disease podcast.

Right?

Really, it was often very frustrating. And, you know, and I got to learn a little bit about what it's like to be in a relationship with somebody who has Lyme disease.

Right? We've learned from siblings.

siblings of folks who have Lyme disease and parents of folks who have Lyme disease and spouses of— none of which, of course, Matt is for me. But quite frankly, I was often disappointed. I was frustrated because Matt made a commitment to do this podcast. In fact, he's the one that created the podcast.

Yeah.

And then I was stuck holding the bag and interviewing people who either wanted to meet with him or expected to meet with him. So it was, it was, it was an important learning experience for me, and it allowed me to be much more empathetic to the folks who are on our podcast who are sharing with us But in many cases, they were disappointing friends, siblings, spouses.

Yes.

And, and it was a really important learning experience for me on this journey. And, and it allowed me to help people show grace to themselves because I learned from that experience with Matt.

It's so true what you're saying. I remember going through that with my children when they were really sick. And I'm like, I think we're going to be at the party. I think we're going to be at the holidays. I think we'll be at Christmas. We plan to be there, but like, You just don't know, you know? And it is such a fine line of like— and I see this in your relationship, Rich, of like pushing Matt. That's a dance. Encouraging Matt, supporting him, but encouraging him to like, no, take the next step. Show up. Even if you're tired, you can do it. And I had to do a lot of that dancing myself of, you know, when one of my kids just really couldn't do it versus when they just didn't feel like they couldn't do it or they were afraid to do it. So it does. It's like it's a special relationship to be caring for someone who has chronic illness, whether it's chronic Lyme or co-infections. And it comes from a good place in your heart, you know, to encourage them and to push a little bit, but also still giving them grace and compassion and empathy and letting them know it's okay when you have a bad day.

And lastly, show yourself grace because, you know, he was disappointing. He knew that he was putting me in an awkward spot. In some cases where, you know, we were targeting a particular person to bring them onto the podcast, and they certainly wanted to have a conversation with somebody who can empathize with them. And I couldn't because I didn't have Lyme disease, right? So, you know, it was— but, but Matt had to learn how to show himself grace.

Yeah.

And I think that was a really important part of watching this journey, because while I was watching people heal and watching the patterns develop that we ultimately teach on our podcast, I was also watching Matt heal emotionally. One of the things that we had heard from one of our early podcast guests was, if you don't believe, you won't get better. I didn't really know what belief meant. I really didn't understand what it was. What I started to watch happen, which then helped me to finally understand what belief was, is that everyone has belief. The question is whether or not you have faith or you have doubt, right? We all have belief. We're either going to doubt whether we're going to get better, or we're going to have faith that we're going to get better. And what I watched happen with Matt as we were going through these interviews, and as he was able to participate more and learn more and more about people who were healing, is he started to doubt a little bit less. And then he started to doubt a little bit less. And then he started to doubt a little bit less. Because what Matt would constantly say to me, as he just shared with everybody here, is, I just don't want to get worse. I can at least maintain this standard, which was so low and it was so horrific. But he doubted whether or not he could do any better. But as he doubted less and less, and as he started getting closer and closer to having faith that he could get the outcome that he wanted to get, he started to get better. So I didn't just see a transformation, Liza, in Matt physically, I actually more importantly saw a transformation in Matt emotionally. He became less doubtful and more faithful. And as his faith began to flourish, so did his health. But it was, it was a slow process. So there were 2 different things that were going on. We were interviewing people, and that's why I encourage folks to listen to our podcast and listen to the stories that so many people are telling.

Yes.

Because little by little, you will not only learn more and more about some of the tools you can use to get better, But you can then start to doubt a little bit less and show yourself a little bit more grace and doubt a little bit less and get to the point where you will have faith that you will heal, have faith that you will get better, and have faith you'll ultimately have the life that you envision. And I watched Matt do it. I've watched hundreds of people do it, and I've watched Matt do it. But in my view, it was really because they showed themselves grace, they gave themselves a chance, and ultimately became successful. And I do want to just echo one of the things that Matt shared. Eliza was, was the game changer of the HPA Balance. I watched it happen with Matt, but quite frankly, I felt it first because the man I shared with you, he was an ambassador and he, and he was very excited to learn about the HPA Balance, but he doubted whether or not it would work for him. He certainly didn't have any faith that it would, it would cause him to get better. In fact, he believed it might make him worse. So he encouraged me to take it and I took it. Right? And I really took it more just to be a friend, not because I particularly understood it or I thought it would, you know, benefit me in any way. And holy cow, did it change my life. I mean, it was unbelievable. After a very short period of time where I was taking it twice a day, I felt myself become more regulated. Because I have a high-stress job and I'm a father of 4 children, and at the time I had a child in law school, a child in medical school, a child in college, and having huge financial commitments that, you know, that I had to honor, in addition to representing a lot of really, really people who are having terrible problems. I was under a lot of stress. I myself was a fight or flight, and I felt myself becoming more regulated. I felt myself having the ability to sleep better. I felt myself having the ability to manage stress in ways that I hadn't come— hadn't before. And I didn't realize that I was in fight or flight. I didn't realize that I wasn't regulated. And it radically changed my life. And as Matt started to see that in me, and as I started to advocate to him to take this, you know, start using this tool, I then watched his life change. I watched him become more regulated. I saw him have a tool that allowed him to have fewer of these stress hormones teaming through his system and ultimately take some more of the opportunities that were available to him to heal. I saw him take more agency over his healing, and because he took more agency over his healing, he started to heal. So I, I think it's important for folks to recognize that it's not just going to be the physiological changes that are going to take place as they go on this journey, but it's also the emotional changes that are going to take place on this journey. And the herbal tools that Dr. Rawls offers will help them with that. It will help them to modulate their cortisol receptors. It'll help them to modulate their stress responses, and that will allow them to take additional steps. And like Matt, I have never stopped taking the HPA Balance. It is an unbelievable tool, and I plan to stay on it for the rest of my life. Wow.

Wow, that is— you guys hit on some really big, important factors. Um, just the faith, the belief, getting yourself out of doubt mode, which is so easy to do and reasonable given all the circumstances. But I think getting out of doubt mode and into faith mode and belief mode is so important. And it would— so it— while you were sharing the story about, you know, watching Matt slowly Embrace more faith. One of the questions I had in my head is, okay, what's the first step? What's the first step to embrace faith? And then you like came in with HPA Balance and it's like, oh, herbs, you know, adaptogen herbs, calming herbs, giving your body, you know, that sense of calm so you can like slow things down. And have more faith and not be so nervous all the time. That is like such a great first step introducing the herbs. So I really love that you kind of just like answered the question that I was gonna ask. And then one thing you shared, Matt, that was really interesting, and I wonder if other people in the community have experienced this, is when you had mentioned you were in the hospital. And your mom and your grandma were praying, and then up on the TV were the words healed. And that must have really hit them, the people praying for you, of like, he's going to be healed. Like, and they probably— I'm curious, did— and then they just felt that. And so maybe every interaction they had with you, even though you were struggling, you know, you have people in your life that are like, you're going to be okay, I feel like you're going to be okay. Did you feel any of that from your mom or grandma? Did it help?

Yeah, I'll tell you, my mom and my grandma 100% believed I was going to get healed and I was going to get better. And I remember them saying, we don't know how long it's going to take, but we know this isn't for life for you. But honestly, I didn't believe it. I did not believe it because there was no hope. I had nothing around me to indicate that there was an answer or a solution or a path forward. Right? It was just, take this steroid, take this drug. You have this thing that we don't know about, and it's going to last for the rest of your life. So that's, that's why I felt the way I did. But I think over time, as I started to have other positive external influences, right, the interactions via Take Boot Camp, the interactions with Rich, the interactions with, with Dr. Rawls, I started to realize, okay, all these pieces came together and collectively gave me that hope that Rich referred to, right? Because I think you need a lot of different examples, and that's why I often go back to community is the first step. And that's why I love what you guys are doing with the VitalPlan community.

The right community.

Yeah, the right community. Yes. But I mean, your community here, the VitalPlan community, everybody watching is a powerful community moderated by you, Liza, right? And having the proper community and the proper influence can give you that hope and that inspiration, which is why our podcast, your, you know, your community, all these things is what we try to do to help other people have that belief, have that hope to take the right steps.

So let me weigh in on the community piece, Liza, because I think it's really important.

Please.

And, and, and I just want to clarify one thing. What I watched with Matt, and, and, and I've listened to a lot of podcast guests, is that they get very frustrated when people tell them they have to believe or you have to have faith. And, and what I saw with Matt was he doubted a little less, and then he took a step, and then he doubted a little less, and he took another step. So I don't think Matt went from being a doubter to being faithful.

I think he—

I think it was a progressive, a progressive reduction in doubt that allowed him to take a step, which then allowed him to have a little less doubt and then take another step. He ultimately did become faithful. He ultimately believed. And the way I define faith is the belief that you can get the outcome that you want. He finally became faithful, but it wasn't just a switch that went from doubtful to faithful. It was a very slow—

Right.

Process. And the HPA balance really did help that. But let me, let me— and I'd like to tie that into the community piece of this, which is Matt and I did participate in a number of different community events, and we did interact with a lot of communities because as the podcast became more popular, we were invited to participate in more communities. But quite frankly, almost every one of them left me depressed. Almost every one of them was really just a group of doubters who I didn't want to go. And I wasn't sick, Liza, and I didn't want to go anymore because it was just a bunch of doubters.

I get it.

So when the Vital Plan indicated that they were going to start a community, and quite frankly, I'm not saying this to suck up to you, but when they said that they were going to choose you to do the work, Matt and I were celebrating because we knew that you were a faithful person. We knew you weren't going to be putting together a pity party. And folks have to make sure they get into the right community because I believe the wrong community can actually hurt you and make it worse and make you more doubtful rather than less doubtful and ultimately faithful.

I'm speechless. Thank you so much for sharing those kind, generous words. It's, you know, it is. It's true, though, that you do need to surround yourself with hopeful people. We're like, we don't have to be happy every day. This is very, very hard work. I'm a realist, but at the same time, you just have a choice. Do you want to look this direction or that direction? And I think what happened to me is because my kids were struggling so bad, and you met one of my kids, Ava, and it was a hard journey. And you just have to show up for your kids. And if you can't be positive about it, you can at least be neutral.

Mm-hmm.

And that was a big thing I leaned on of like, just be neutral. Um, and even that is like a little step in the right direction. But I think you're right, Rich, you know, who you surround yourself with is gonna have incredible influence on you. Um, and I just remember telling myself like, I am the biggest influence for my children. So like, I gotta get it together. I also was praying so hard for them, just as your mom was praying for you, Matt. And I was like, you know, I was up at 2 in the morning praying for my children. And I remember God was like, they're healed. They're healed. But you have to go through this journey. So I knew just from praying all the time that they were going to be okay. And we just— there was a reason why we had to do the journey, right? And everybody in our family had a reason for them to be in the journey. So you do— I held on to that, and I encourage everybody to do that. You know, like, just know at the endgame you are going to heal, and keep your focus, your eye on the prize. And where you keep your focus is the direction you're going to be headed into. And it is such a privilege to help people in the Lyme community because it is hard, and we all need support. So yeah, this is a really, really big topic. And I loved how you talked about having agency too, because there's a lot that we have to do to make sure we get to the other side. And Matt, I know people would be interested. I want to save time for questions, but I think people would really be interested in what you do today, not just your herbal regimen, but just give us like a quick recap. Tell us about your day. How are you eating? What are you exercising? What boundaries do you hold? What herbs are you taking? Um, I think that would be really interesting to hear, especially since you're so active now.

Yeah, I mean, it varies greatly, right? So I'll give you an average day, and then I'll give you an extreme day. So the average day is, you know, I wake up, generally wake up around 5 o'clock. Thank God I'm able to, you know, exercise. I go to the gym because I'm grateful that my body is able to handle it. And you know, do, do some cardio. I really should do some weightlifting, and I think everybody in our community should. I just don't because I need to, but I don't. And then from there, I go on to work, um, you know, work generally until about 5 o'clock, sometimes later. And many times in the evenings, just, you know, either, either social, personal, or boot camp tasks. So there are times— this week, for example, on Monday, we ran into Brayden at the Project Lime Gala. So—

Yeah.

Got up at 5, went to the gym, went to work for half day, met up with Rich and Robert here, We drove out to New York City, went to the gala. We got home, slept 2 hours, go to work on Tuesday, right? And I say that because initially that would scare the crap out of me, right? It would scare me so much because I'm like, oh no, I didn't, I didn't get enough sleep. Oh no, I was in a stimulated environment and I was so excited and I was such a good time. But then my, you know, all my hormones are going and like it would be scary. So you have to learn that like it's okay every once in a while, but you have to listen to your body, have to give it what it needs the next day. Went to work, did my thing, came home, and you know what? You rest. You go to bed early. You make sure you eat clean so you counter that. So, at the event, you eat clean, you try to manage your stress, you try to do all the things you can and take the proper herbs. So, what did I do that day? I took the BioBoost, which I absolutely love. Took the BioBoost twice because we're in New York City, we're around thousands of people. I'm around a lot of germs. So, the BioBoost for me is my add-on tool, like a bolt-on when I'm going to be around a lot of people to help me from getting sick. I love that tool from a general illness, flu, cold, COVID standpoint. It's Yes. So I took that twice. I took the Restore Kit in the morning per my usual. I didn't take it at night because I'm now on the half dose, but I also took the HPA Balance twice. And I also, when I got home, in addition to the HPA Balance, I took additional adaptogens. I took some tinctures of ashwagandha, some tinctures of passionflower to help regulate my nervous system because of all the emotions, right? I got to meet Jenny Bottaccio from Illinois Lyme, and it was just very exciting to meet people for the first time. And those emotions can, can be good and bad depending on how you react to them. So I tried to counter all that. And this week was great, right? I mean, I had a fantastic week. We did— we had a lot of obligations this week. We did things for Lyme Warrior. We're here tonight. So almost every night we've been doing something for Tick Boot Camp. And, you know, yeah, we did our regular podcast on Wednesday. And, you know, instead of it being intimidating and scary, I look forward to it because I'm not afraid of it anymore. I know as long as I do the right things, worst case scenario, okay, maybe I didn't have to rest a little bit, but it's not going to be a drastic major setback. And I think that fear of going back to the beginning is so prevalent in so many of us. But you— it's not going to happen. You have to get that out of your head, right? If you do— well, I should preface it— if you do the right things, it won't. It doesn't mean you can never eat a cookie. It doesn't mean you can never sleep, you know, a little bit. Try to avoid that.

Have a beer.

You can't— you can't have a beer, right? But if you do those things, it's not— you shouldn't be paralyzed in fear that, oh my God, I'm going to get sick again, right? Because I always say, and I probably said this on many Vital Plan recordings that we've done. I think the fear is worse than the thing, right? So if I drink a beer and that overwhelming fear for 24 hours and that paralysis of, oh no, I'm going to get sick, I'm going to get sick, that tight body, right? From my experience, when I was able to eliminate the fear, I wouldn't have the reaction that I had previously. So you have a beer, you feel like crap the next day. But, you know, and not that I'm encouraging people to drink, that's a bad example, right? You eat that cookie, it's probably a better example. you had a cookie, you get a gluten-free cookie, right? And, and the next day you're not feeling well. If you just don't have that fear state, it won't be as bad. And that's been my experience personally that I want to share with everybody. I think the fear is worse than the thing. And I don't know, it seems like you disagree.

I don't know if I disagree. I think that, you know, you've become more, you know, modulated in your spiritual, emotional, and physical health. I think you've been You know, you've been living your life more normally, but you've done it in a very healthy way, right? So you understand that if you have a good system in place and you take the steps that you should take to protect your terrain from any of the violations that we come in contact with on a regular basis, that you can live a relatively normal life, right? Now, again, it doesn't mean you're going to go out and go get liquored up or stay out all night or run around with the girls all night or do those kinds of things that people do to ultimately weaken their terrain. But at the same time, if you're out at an event and somebody encourages you to have one drink, for example, you can do that without being paralyzed. So you are living a much more normalized life. And I think, Liza, what this does is it really does help us to understand the difference between Eastern medicine and Western medicine. I do want to focus on that for a moment because—

Please.

Because what I've learned now is that the system that I was raised in, the Western medical system, is a great system in the event that you are acutely ill or acutely injured. And when we cross over into a chronic illness state, the Western medical system simply doesn't have the tools in order to assist us to get through that challenge. And what I learned through this process of working through Tick Boot Camp and watching Matt get better and ultimately using all of Dr. Rowles' products myself is that in order to protect yourself prophylactically from becoming chronically ill or how to overcome a chronic illness is that we have to take agency over our terrain.

Yep.

And the way of doing that is through herbal tools. And, and, and once I learned that, Liza, it changed my life, uh, and it's put me in a position where I've literally not had a sniffle for years. Now again, I, I certainly don't want to devalue the experiences of people who were chronically ill or are chronically ill and the challenges that come along with that. But you can put yourself in a position where you have a very robust immune system and a very robust terrain. And once you put yourself in that position, the likelihood of you slipping back is very low. So you can maintain this, you can live a very healthy life. And these tools that Dr. Rawls has provided to all of us puts you in a position where You can live a normal life, you can have normal social interactions, and you can still remain very healthy and free of illness.

However, I want to add one point because we learned this early on. We had a young guest from Norway who came on the podcast and she was in remission. She was healed and she was a really good guest. We followed her on social media very, very early on. Fast forward 6 months, she's out every night, she's clubbing it up, drinking. She's not sleeping.

Posting on Instagram every night.

Posting every night, all night long, not eating the right foods. 6 months later, she's in a really bad place, right? So, you can't outrun those kind of things. And that's why I want to be careful to say, I don't want people to take this away from, I can do whatever I want, because you can't, right? I think you have to live life and there's going to be things like you have that beer, you have that cookie, you don't sleep that well, but then you have to make really important, wise, conscious decisions to then do things good the next day and make sure you balance that. But you can't just do bad, bad, bad, bad, bad to your body and expect you not to get unwell again, right?

I know.

But it is possible to maintain maintain a healthy healed state, you can't abuse your body like with anything.

And, and when you, when you're engaging any of those abusive behaviors, you are going to affect your terrain, right? So I'm not certainly encouraging anything.

There you go. Yeah.

But if, if you're, if you're careful with your diet, uh, and your food intake, if you're careful with your movement— and I'm not suggesting you have to go back and run 10 miles like Matt, uh, you know, ultimately came back to— but if you, if you're moving If you have clean sleep hygiene and you are being very cautious about making sure that you sleep, if you're being careful about making sure that you are in healthy social relationships and setting proper boundaries, if you are taking your herbs, and again, I'm not a salesperson for the Vital Plan. I am a customer. I've never taken literally one herb from Dr. Rawls without paying for it. But, Liza, what I learned was that you could rebuild your terrain from wherever you are. And step by step, I did build my terrain. And first, I began by modulating because of Matt's request that I try something. I modulated my HPA axis. And then ultimately, the next step I took was that I started taking the Restore Now, I started taking the Restore Kit because I was bitten by a tick, and Matt sent me the Restore Kit. And, you know, the story I'd like to share with folks is when I first took the Restore Kit, I herxed, but I didn't realize I was herxing, and I threw it out. I actually— I thought I was getting sick from the kit.

What?

Yep. And then when I shared with Matt that I threw it out, he said to me, go pull it out of the garbage, which I couldn't because it already went into the truck. But I learned that I was herxing, and I learned what a herx was. And ultimately, I bought another kit and started taking that kit. I actually did a— I actually called Dr. Olson. We had a conference together. together. And I stayed on the full Restore Kit, the double dose, for 9 months. And ultimately, from that point forward, I've been on half the kit, and I will stay on that for the rest of my life, in part because I live in a tick endemic community and I want to prophylactically protect myself, but in part because I realized the value of taking those herbs. But in addition to that, I also rebuilt my gut. I learned about the gut, and I took the Gut Rebuild Kit.

Share your bamboo story.

And then I started taking the Brain Boost because I understand how important the brain is and how important brain health is and how that organ is the, in my view, the most important organ that we have that controls everything from the day we're born until we die. So, I'm a big fan of herbs and I quite frankly can't advocate enough for the importance of taking the herbal protocols in addition to having all of the other healthy practices in place so that you have healthy terrain and you can live a full life and you don't have to be anxious about whether you're going to get sick when you go on a plane.

Yeah.

Or you get off a plane or you go to an event like we did on Monday where where thousands of people— you're walking around New York City for several hours and bumping into unhealthy people, including the homeless man that I bought dinner for. You don't have to be afraid of those things because you have a healthy terrain, you have a robust immune system, and you can ultimately live a full life.

Yes, yes, it's so, so true. I just put in some clarification too because everybody knows, they're like, what's Restore Kit? What's Restore? Restore Kit is now phase 3 of Restore 180. So it is very common because people are very sick that they're going to stay on Phase 3, which is the old Restore Kit, a bit longer. And it's so amazing to see. I think that's the piece of the puzzle that people are missing, that the herbs do so much more than kill microbes. We're constantly being compared to like antibiotics or methylene blue or Any other type of kill phase. Yes, the herbs do kill and suppress Bartonella, Babesia, Lyme, but there's like this whole other part of herbs that restore your cellular health. And so those are the pieces that you actually see six months, twelve months, twenty-four months on herbs. It doesn't have to be therapeutic dose. But the longer you stay on them, like sky's the limit on what you see recover. So just a quick story. You know, I had Lyme and Bartonella, but I didn't know, right? It was later when I tested myself. But I did all the lifestyle things, which absolutely worked until they stopped working. Right. I do feel like the diet. The de-stressing, the movement, the boundaries bought me a good 5 to 7 years of just kind of like keeping things dormant. But it wasn't until I brought in herbs and I did 6 months of Phase 3 where I'm like, oh my gosh, now I can— I'm working full-time, I'm traveling, I never get sick. I have emotional bandwidth. I mean, like, you just never know. I only did it for insurance purposes, right? Of like, I just want to ensure that another mystery illness doesn't pop up 3 years from now, as is the case when you have a chronic condition. But it is so interesting. And then I even see it with my children. You know, I had one kid who was in like a therapeutic day school because of the emotional dysregulation. Who is now like in ROTC, in college, super fit, camps on the weekends. I mean, like, it's just, and it's just, it's, it's because it's like, it's going beyond the 6 months on herbs, going beyond the 12 months. And you can kind of mix them up too. You don't always have to be on the same thing. I know you guys love being on the same thing, but like, even I bounce around between like Daily Herbal. Then I'm doing Biome Boost. Then I'll do like 2 formulas of, you know, the Immune Boost bundle. And you just kind of know what your body needs. So thank you for sharing all of that because it is such an important part. And I have to say, I've said this story before. I went on a walking meeting with Dr. Rawls once. We were in Orlando. We did a 90-minute walk in Orlando. Okay. So, you know, it's hot.

He loves to swim.

And he's like, I'm gonna go for a swim. And I'm like, I'm gonna go rest. And he just keeps going. Um, I'm sure, you know, he takes the lifestyle, like he eats cleaner. I'm sure he takes more herbs than I do, but like really sky's the limit. Like you just don't know what you don't know of how far you can really get your health back.

Yeah, Liza, I often say that people that think they're healthy could become even healthier if they try the Restore Kit, right? Or Phase 3. Because I really believe it and we've seen it. Look at Rich. Rich was healthy. Look how much more healthy he is now, right? People that I have in my life that have been willing to try it, they're better off from it. So I don't think this is just a chronic Lyme solution. This is a solution that can benefit everybody. It's just getting them to realize that they should try it and then realize the benefit of it.

Yeah.

Liza, one of the reasons why there's, there's so much chronic illness in this country and probably in the world is because we're literally swimming in a toxic Ain't that the truth? The amount of chemicals we're coming in contact with, the number of bugs we're coming in contact with, the number of EMFs we're coming in contact with, I mean, it truly is a toxic soup. And I think, you know, I've shared with folks that we, we built our podcast on the frameworks from Unlocking Lyme. And one of my favorite frameworks, or at least one of my favorite metaphors that Dr. Rawls teaches in Unlocking Lyme, uh, is the pot boiling over, right? And what he shares with us is that, you know, all of us have, uh, you know, an immune dysfunction you know, that is, that is on a slow burn because of all of the toxins that we're coming in contact with, whether it be petrochemicals or, or any other types of toxins and molds and other things we're coming in contact with, right? And ultimately, with chronic illnesses, the pot boils over. So what I ultimately took away from that, especially after I had such a good experience when I was on the Restore Kit, or what you're all calling Phase 3 now, Mm-hmm. is that I felt so good and I felt so, I guess, comfortable that I didn't want to let that go. And it just kept building and and building and building, even though I stepped it down to half the kit.

Yeah.

The, um, the, the, the metaphor that Dr. Rhodes used with the pot boiling up— well, now that I understand that I'm on the slow burn, and we're all in the slow burn, and we don't want it to boil over, what I always wanted to do is do everything I could to keep the pot as stable as I can, keep the, the fire as low as possible so it will not burn over. And the Restore Kit and the other tools that I'm using have allowed that to happen for me. And I think it will, it will allow it to happen for all of you. And yes, you'll have your other tools, as Matt was talking about, where, where, you know, like when I'm not— if I ever feel a little icky, I'll take the BioBoost, right? I mean, I'll take that tool because I know I've probably been around a lot of people and I probably picked up some bugs and I want to give my, my immune system a little bit of abuse. So I want to have some more antimicrobial tools. So I will, I will take that then. And everybody will find what works for them. But, but, uh, you know, what I, what I strongly urge people to remember is that agency is understanding your own body. Agency is taking control of your own terrain. And once you do that, you'll have a better and live a fuller life.

That's right. That's right. Such an important message, having that agency. I mean, that's why we do the things we do. That's why you guys do the podcast and we have the communities. We want to give people the empowerment to take that agency, use that agency, and, you know, continue to advocate for yourself and in your journey. So thank you. All right, what about we do like 10 to 15 minutes of questions? Is that— do you guys have the time to do that?

Plenty of time.

Yeah. Okay. All right, well, I had some questions come in in advance, so I wanted to see if Um, you could give us some of your thoughts. Prefacing, I'm not a doctor, and Matt and Rich aren't doctors either, so just know that this is not medical advice, but it's always good to hear about the experiences. All right, this is coming from Judy. I think she's here today. Um, buzzing in the body. She kind of feels like she's plugged into the socket. Is this going to go away? Do you have any suggestions about this? Is this Lyme-related? What are your thoughts?

Yeah, we hear this. So from a personal experience, I had a similar experience and also from what we hear on the podcast. So I'll say that sensation persisted beyond IV antibiotics for me, and that was like an odd— it would come and go and it was— there was no rhyme or reason behind it. I don't know what specifically for me And I don't think it was one specific thing, but over time it just subsided and dissipated. I haven't had that in years, candidly, but it was something that would just come and go randomly, that weird like electricity feeling that like that, like you're plugged into an outlet. I get it and it's very hard to describe it. So from my personal experience, I just think as you use these broad herbs for antimicrobial and, you know, nervous system reset and just even immune system regulation, for me, at some point it was just completely gone, right? But it was very, it was very slow. It was less and less and less and then gone. We've had people on the podcast share this as well. Some of them still have it and are working towards getting rid of it. But many people have had the same experience that I've had, that as they find their tool to help them heal, it goes away. So 100%, I've had it. Many people on the podcast have had it. It can go away. We just have to find the right thing to help. And again, for me, it was Phase 3, right? 8 months or 6, really, was it 6 or 8? I'm trying to remember.

8 months.

I really would say about 8 months, right? About 8 months of the Restore Kit or Phase 3. And I mean, at that point, I was a different person. That was where Most of those weird things were stripped away at the end of that period for me.

Well, I'll share with you, with, you know, again, observing Matt on the Restore Kit. Remember, he started the Restore Kit after I did, and after he saw that I wasn't getting sick after I had taken the Restore Kit for some time, he started the Restore Kit. And we had actually taken one of the Rawls MD or one of the Vital Plan classes, and they had shared some data about what the likelihood was, or I guess what the Surveys were showing how long it took for almost everyone to overcome their their their symptoms when they were taking the resource kit, and I remember they said it was nine months that that I think somewhere in the high ninety percent of the people would would ultimately overcome their challenges after nine months. And I remember Matt was like almost at that at that window where he was like eight months just short of nine months where he finally started getting unbelievable relief. And why don't you share with everyone how your how your how your lab tests change before and after the Restore Kit.

Oh, yeah. I completely forgot you were bringing that up. That's a really good point. We have tangible real-world blood work for me about that.

Yeah.

Right? So, my—

Phase 3, Matt, right?

Phase 3. Phase 3. Sorry. My blood levels, so my ANAs were off the charts. Lupus diagnosis, ANA off the charts. I wish I remember what they were because it's going back years ago now, but they were astronomical and they were just pegged. Every time I'd go start the Restore Kit, And I'm making up a number. I think it was 1 to 840. It went, and I think over 1, I think it was over 80 is positive. So I went, I think from like 840 down to like 6 something, down to like 4 something, down to like, I don't know what it was, just over 80. And then after that, it started just coming back negative, negative, negative, which meant under 80. But that was the course of that like 9-month window where I kept getting blood work through my neurologist who was helping me through all this. And I just saw my ANAs, the, you know, the ANAs are the inflammatory, right? The autoimmune markers. And a big part of my, my symptomology was chronic pain. And you, from the Restore Kit, the numbers just came down, came down, came down, came down. And I just— they've been negative, negative, negative, negative, negative since. So it's real-world evidence that—

Well, as I was watching him get better, I was watching him improve, and he had laboratory results that demonstrated how it was working for him over the course of that 8 or 9 month window.

Yeah, yeah, love it. Nope, I saw that in my family too. I saw one person, one of my kids, do the labs. And of course, we try to like conserve funds. So when I saw symptoms in my other kid, I'm like, you're good. Like, we don't need any more testing. It's too expensive. But yeah, no, it's true. You can do a before and after. So that's awesome. We love hearing that. I know people want to hear that data too. All right. Here is another question from Karen. Any suggestions for your legs seizing up? It almost happens during the night when my legs are still and they can kind of feel like calcified, terrible pain. Is this anything you experienced, Matt or Rich? And do you have any advice?

Not to that level of severity, but there are times and there have been times, not really recently, where My leg would just sort of be sore or in pain. And honestly, if if if you're able to, the one thing that solves that for me is even if you can't move far, a gentle walk, a gentle walk or a gentle stretch. And I've always made what I always try to do is figure out what is my body telling me and and what are the patterns I'm seeing. Okay, this is happening. When does it happen? When does it not happen? So I'm very analytical trying to figure out like what can make that stop. So for me. If I actually went for, I don't know, depending on how, a 20-minute walk that day, almost never would I have that feeling. But if I didn't move a lot for a 2 to 3 day window, it'd be more likely for it to happen as I was healing and kind of pushing myself a little bit. And it may have been because I was pushing a little bit too hard, you know, and I don't really know, but the movement was key to have less pain and just like that weird kind of like sensation in your legs when you're trying to sleep. So again, it wasn't horrible where I couldn't sleep, but it was an annoying thing that really was only there if I didn't get enough movement throughout the day for me.

So, as we've seen a lot of this on the podcast, and generally what we've heard from folks is very much in line with what Matt has shared. The first is movement, right? Essentially, what I think what people believe is that the toxin buildup ultimately is what triggered, you know, the challenges they were having with their legs when they slept. Second thing that some folks shared with us is that they believed that they weren't taking in adequate fluids. And increasing fluid intake in addition to movement would help them. And then there's a third phenomenon which I'd like Matt to talk about, is that wired but tired, or I should say tired but wired phenomena, where, you know, folks are exhausted but they go to bed and they can't fall asleep. Matt, why don't you talk a little bit about that? Because we've seen a lot of that in the podcast, and Matt can talk about how herbs will help with that.

Yeah, I mean, the person who depicted it so well was Thea de Bronte. She was fantastic. She was one of our early guests, and she did this little video And it was hysterical about like you're trying to go to bed, you're exhausted. As soon as you close your eyes and hit that bed, your brain goes like this. And she did a little visual where she jumps up on her bed, is jumping around and being all silly. But it's such a weird thing where you're mentally and physically exhausted, but then you hit the bed, you hit the pillow, and your brain starts going and your body becomes wired and you can't sleep, right?

Yeah.

So, that was huge for me. Sleep was a big, big problem. But the number one thing from a sleep standpoint is your nervous system. So, that's where the adaptogens and the HPA balance And, you know, depending on where you're at, Dr. Rohl teaches this. And I would say, you know, check in with Dr. Rohl or Vital Plan or your doctor. But in some cases, like I do with the HPA Balance, I do half the dose. I take 2 capsules a day instead of twice a day. Sometimes people need more, they need higher concentrations. So there's, you know, we have different sensitivities to different herbs.

That's right.

So depending on where somebody's at, if they're trying HPA Balance and not realizing the benefit we're having, they really should consult with somebody from Vital Plan to figure out, like, what are my options here? Because maybe it's additional adaptogens, or maybe a higher dosage, right, could benefit them. So I think that's something that, that is a factor as well. But 100% adaptogens and nervous system regulation for me were the key to being able to sleep better.

So I can just tell you, the HPA balance is the game changer for me with sleep. Uh, once I started to get sleep, I didn't realize I wasn't getting enough sleep because I had not been sleeping for so long.

And you had a new normal.

I had a new normal, or well, maybe now that I sleep well, I have a new normal because Uh, you know, the HPA Balance is it for me. So, I actually take, I take the full dose. I take 2 in the morning when I get up, and I take 2 about an hour before I go to bed. Sometimes if I take it a little too close to going to sleep, uh, it does keep me up. But the HPA Balance was, was a game changer for me on so many different levels, the most important of which was sleep.

Okay, good. Thank you. And I just wanted to add, Karen, I have had these too, um, and I don't know if this speaks to you or anybody else that has this pain in their legs. But magnesium, it could be a magnesium deficiency or magnesium and potassium. And sometimes I will take this. I don't ever have this really happen as often, but I experienced it happening like when I go through seasons of like I'm weight training and then I have to pop an electrolyte. And that actually does help the muscle spasms for me at night. So just wanted to pass that on. Okay, here is a question. I'm getting a lot of stuff on tetanus tonight.

Tinnitus.

First, I need to speak the English language. Tinnitus. From experience or guests, have you ever had practitioners talk about this? And what What perspectives, what knowledge can you share from all the interviews on tinnitus?

Yeah, so I've never had tinnitus, so ringing of the ears, right? I've never had that severe ringing of the ears or tinnitus. We have had doctors and we have had patients describe this as well in the Lyme space. Some people have argued that it's because of their heart racing so aggressively that it can cause tinnitus. Others have argued that it's part of the neurological and the imbalance of the neurological system. And generally speaking, as you, as you heal, it gets better. But I can't speak to really one specific thing that a doctor or a patient has said has helped them other than as I healed and as I overall felt better, it did subside. So I don't know, Rich, if you can remember anything specifically.

So we've had many guests share with us that they had suffered from tinnitus. We've actually had some experts on the podcast who shared with us that tinnitus is actually a ringing that always exists. The question is whether or not your brain is paying attention to it or not. So it's really a neurological issue. And what I want to urge folks to do is to go onto our website. And Matt has created a really cool website where folks can just like put in a search term and—

Wow.

Go onto the— go to our website, put in the search term tinnitus, and a whole bunch of podcasts will come up and you'll be able to get some insights from experts that we've interviewed who will be able to give you help on how to deal with tinnitus.

That's awesome. Yes, I love that search capability. You got to search over 600 interviews, people, but I'm sure there's there is advice and specialists that are going to speak on tinnitus. And I know from some past live events, Dr. Rawls would say, yeah, it's cellular damage, and that can be repaired depending on oh look at that! Karen put tickbootcamp.com. That's where it would be. Yeah, Dr. Rawls would say, you know, as you progress. with herbs, that these things will slowly restore themselves. Um, so that's— I know that's what he would say. Um, but yes, is this— is your website tickbootcamp.com? Is that right? That's where all the podcasts are. Okay, fantastic.

So working with— we, we gave— I don't know if anybody knows Carter and Peyton Bratzke. They are the founders of Limeless. So Peyton actually is a Google employee, software developer at Google, and she built this platform for— built on artificial intelligence to help the Lyme patients, help Lyme patients. And we gave them all of our transcripts and they're now building an AI platform around it in their—

holy cow—

to make it even easier to have a, you know, natural language conversation using a ChatGPT-like experience to interact with our transcripts. That's coming soon as well. So we just got sent that over to them. So that's going to be, you know, we realize that with so many podcasts, it's hard to find everything on our website because it's just so much, right? And the keywords and the transcripts and finding the right, the right, the right word. So we're gonna have some progress there coming soon as well. We know that that's a struggle.

That's incredible. Oh my gosh. And can I just tell everybody, you guys run Tick Boot Camp like on the side. Like you never quit the day job. And so it's just a miracle, like how much you accomplish and you contribute to the Lyme community too. I mean, it's amazing.

Thank you. Yeah, thanks.

It's a passion project, guys. It is self-funded. It is a labor of love. And we're blessed anytime folks find a solution that helps them improve in some, you know, in some way.

Yeah. Amazing. All right. I want to take this one question that actually I didn't even know I had the Q&A box open, but I did. This is Donna. Does Dr. Oz recommend alternating different herbs after being on Restore 180 for a length of time? Donna, this is such personal preference. You know, people like what they like. I know Matt and Rich have expressed, you know, kind of staying on Phase 3. I know that our coaches would encourage like maybe every 6 to 12 months rotate something, keep it fresh, keep, you know, keep the chemistry fresh and new. But sorry, but it really is personal preference. And when you graduate, From Restore 180, you get another one-on-one coaching call totally included. So you get 3 within Restore 180, and then you earn a bonus coaching call when you graduate. And then you'll determine, Donna, what to do moving forward. And then you can always check in with us if you want to mix things up a year from then. Call us, email us, we're always there for you. Um, But you, the longer you're on herbs and the longer you're with Vital Plan, you kind of know what to use when you need it. So, you know, if you have a season where you went on a vacation and you just kind of like went a little crazy, well, maybe you're gonna have to be back on Gut Balance and some active enzymes, and maybe you're gonna need to bump up the chlorella. But if you're sick and you definitely like drove yourself into the ground over the holidays, maybe you need to boost more of adaptogen recovery and advanced biotic. And, this is where you learn what your body needs when you need it. So, really, really good question. Go ahead.

Can I just add to that?

Yes, please.

Well, what we've learned from the folks we've interviewed and what I've learned from watching Matt is that in the beginning, your brain and your body are on fire, right? I mean, you need to, you need to tamp down the fire. And my recommendation is do what Dr. Rawls recommends you do in the beginning, right? After following the steps that Dr. Rawls gives you, which quite frankly is what I did and what Matt did.

That's right.

After you tamp down the fire and after you're now more in tune with your body, you then can start to read what your body wants. You then have a better understanding of what you need, and you'll, you'll figure out what your body needs and what's working for you. So what What ultimately worked for me is HPA Balance every day, half a Restore Kit every day, a portion of the Gut Rebuild every day, and the Brain Biome every day. And what I also add to it is the Biome Boost when I come in contact with— now that's what works for me after I built up and used some of these protocols. Now, I did listen to my body even at times when I was bullied by Matt. So, for example, what he's starting to make fun of me about, Liza, is that when I was taking the chlorella, it would give me the runs, right? And, and it can happen. So it didn't work for me. And then, and then, so I stopped using it when I was doing the gut rebuild. And then Matt was, was, uh, bullying me again, and I, and I, and I took it again and I got the runs again. And then finally, 3 was a charm. I never used it again. So it didn't work for me. And I actually asked Dr. Rawls about it on one of the podcasts, and Dr. Rawls said, well, that didn't work for you. You listened to your body. You stopped doing it. That's what you should do, right?

He was just being polite.

He was not being polite. So, so I think the question— Donna's question is, I recommend that she just follow the protocol as Dr. Rawls outlines it until her body calms down and she can start to then hear her body signals. And then when she's then in a position where she can, she can hear her body signals, just follow what her body is telling her to do.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I love that. I love that. It's so true. And it's interesting because even though we didn't have Restore 180 back when you all started your Vital Plan journey, it's so interesting that you actually did start at Phase 1 because you both did start with HPA Balance. So, that's just like you kind of did Restore 180 and then you kind of circled back to some gut stuff. So, that's always great to hear. All right, I want to just take one more question, and it's about testing. I can't find it now. I'm going to try to scroll back, but how do we feel about testing? You know, I had mentioned my whole family has tested. We kind of needed the validation from my husband so that I could do all the things I wanted to do to help my children, and so I was not about To like, it's just, that's just how my family works. You know what I mean? Like, needed my husband's green light. And so I got the testing for my children, but then I didn't really retest and nobody retests and we all feel great and I don't feel the need to retest. What do you think about testing?

Yeah, I, I have strong opinion— strong opinions, right? So I had pretty good insurance. I still have pretty good insurance and I was able to get testing because it didn't cost me a lot of money to get testing. And that's why I did a lot of that with my ANAs and even the Lyme and the the tick-borne stuff. But I would say that we just saw Dr. Liz Horne again, researcher Dr. Liz Horne from the West Coast on Monday at the gala in New York City. And her study this year proved that if you've ever had an antibiotic, even one, your odds of testing positive for Lyme disease, even if you're infected with the standard 2-tier or the modified 2-tier testing, is less than 5% in a lab test by a regular LabCorp or Quest.

Really?

You can go and spend a ton of money to an IGEnX or DNA Connections or somebody else to do that. Now, if you have the means, I think it's powerful to have that information, right? But no, if you're not going to iGenex and paying totally out of pocket outside of insurance, the testing you're going to get is really not great. Less than 5% chance of testing positive. I mean, that is an insane study that she did, and they're building on that, and they're finding that standard testing is just so bad in so many ways.

So, guys, I, I'm not a big fan of testing, quite frankly, um, and I'm not a big fan of testing because I think testing is a very Western medical tool, meaning in Western medicine they're looking for a bug and they're looking to kill it. So if you're looking at this through a Western lens, then I understand the desire for testing. But if you're looking at it through the Eastern lens or the tools that are available to you to heal your terrain, I don't think you have to know what the bugs are. What you need to do is you need to clean up your terrain, you need to heal your terrain, you need to make sure your body and your immune system is more robust. So I don't think you need the testing. I agree with Matt. I mean, when we did the interview with Dr. Liz Horn, I strongly urge folks to listen to that interview. I mean, and she actually tested the top Lyme disease tests, not, you know, not the scrub, you know, 2-tier test that you're going to take at one of these traditional labs. She actually tested the top specialty lab tests and demonstrated that they will fail 95% of the time if you've had one dose of antibiotics. But I, again, I don't think you need to test. What I think you need to do is you need to take agency over your body. You need to calm down the fire. You need to get in tune with your body signals. You have an onboard diagnostic system. Once you can put out the fire, the signals will come. You can listen to your signals, and you can then go through a process of restoring the robustness of your immune system and your terrain.

Yeah. And we believe that it's just in this space, if you're chronically ill in our space, we believe it's never just Borrelia burgdorferi. It's not because—

That's right.

Borrelia burgdorferi is an opportunistic infection. Now, there's so many other things that we all have. Epstein-Barr virus, right? Cytomegalovirus, all these things that are opportunistic that we have. So, I have Lyme disease. Great. I learned I had Rocky Mountain spotted fever, Babesia. I had all these different things that I didn't know at first.

EBV?

Yeah. I had crazy EBV off the charts. My EBV levels were off the charts. My autoimmune levels were charts. But what got it all under control? A broad-spectrum herbal protocol. So no matter what I ended up having, it didn't matter. It wasn't just Lyme. It was Lyme, and I was fortunate enough to know I had maybe 5 or 6 other things, but I probably had 25 things that I didn't know about, right? But in the end, it's that broad approach to rebuild the system, rebuild your immune system, rebuild your, you know, your microbial balance, and that's how you're going to get better. Amen.

Well, that was the Restore 180 for me.

That was so—

that's exactly right. It is broad spectrum. And it's so interesting because people are like, well, how do I know this is going, you know, that these herbs are going to reach my Babesia? How do I know, you know, it's going to reach Bartonella? It's broad spectrum. It's going to reach that and all the other things that you might not even be testing positive for. So it is, it's the power of the broad spectrum. And that's why Dr. Rawls never uses one herb. It's always formulas of herbs, formulations. He always talks about the synergy of the herbs with each other too. So all the science is there. Yeah.

And Liza, remember, although herbal protocols are new to Western societies and Western medicine, they've existed for thousands of years before Western medicine. They've existed in cultures from the beginning of time.

That's right.

It really is a well-tested tool that will allow you to have a robust terrain.

Yeah, I mean, look, Ötzi the Iceman. So, I don't know, for a little bit of background, Ötzi the Iceman was found recently from the Italian Alps. You got to correct me with some of this stuff. He was, I think, 3,000 years BC. He was frozen. We found him. He's at some museum now. Within the last couple of decades, they started studying him. They found Borrelia in his bloodstream. And you know what else they found? the herbs that are in the Restore Kit in his tool belt because he was taking herbal medicine to help his Lyme disease from Borrelia. Because even back then they had knowledge. 5,300 years ago. 5,300 years ago.

Even back then. Amazing.

These herbs that Dr. Rawls is using today were used by people 5,000 years ago, right? So it's just, it's been out there forever. It's just we need to accept it more. And by the way, on top of that, every single Lyme leader doctor we interviewed, whether it be an herbalist or whether it be even more of an antibiotic-based doctor, they all cite the herbs Dr. Rawls uses as being the best herb to treat all co-infections and all tick-borne diseases. So this is not just a Dr. Rawls thing. He has just put it together in a really easy-to-use kit in an easy-to-use way. Other doctors, nobody questions the protocol. Nobody questions what's in the kit, right? So that is just, I think, by far the accepted answer from an herbal standpoint too. So to us, it seems so obvious, which is why it's hard to accept so much debate when it comes to the topic.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I did not know that story. So thank you so much for sharing. I mean, it's incredible. Well, goodness, this— the conversation has been so great. I think that you hit on so many important points: the faith, the belief, the broad spectrum. We covered testing, your lifestyle. Now, is there anything you all want to add before we wrap up our conversation?

I just want to say never give up. I don't care where you're at, if you're in remission, if you are you know, in a perfect place of health or the worst place you've ever been in. Don't give up and keep making smart, wise decisions overall, and you're going to continue to have better health no matter where you're at. You're going to make steps, you're going to make positive strides forward, even if you think you're in a perfect state, because right decisions, right herbal protocols, right mindset, we're going to live longer, healthier, happier lives.

My last thought is, look, your immune system is always going to win the day. And if you focus on immune health and you focus on terrain and you bring the bugs in your body in balance, the pot will not boil over. You will be healthy and you'll live a healthy life.

I love that. Thank you. Um, I just can't thank you both enough for sharing your stories, um, and giving such encouragement and telling the people what they really need to hear too, encouraging the community But also, sometimes it's hard for us to hear these things, like we do need agency in our journey and to step out of our comfort zone and try new things. It's hard to do, but it's definitely something we need to do. I just want to invite everybody who is not on Restore 180, if it's something that you're exploring, even if you don't have chronic Lyme, maybe you're just struggling You can absolutely still explore Restore 180. Dr. Rawls and I are doing a group discovery call next Friday at 1 PM. I'm going to go ahead and drop the link here in the chat. You'll hear more about it, um, and we would love to answer all your questions about it. Did you all see that? I'll send it one more time. Um, here's the group discovery call. It's next Friday at 1 PM Eastern. If you have more questions, I see some in the Q&A, message me in the Vital Plan Network, just Eliza@vitalplan. That's my little address there in the Vital Plan Network, and I will be sure to get back with you. Matt and Rich, thank you so much. Thank you for your time, um, today, and And it's your 3rd boot camp session. You know we love having you. You guys are always fan favorites, and we really respect all that you do in the community, um, and just all the investments you make to help people who are struggling in our community. We appreciate you so, so much.

Thank you. Right back at all of you guys at Vital Plan Enrolled MD. You know we're huge groupies and fans.

You're a blessing, Liza, and And good luck to all the folks who are on this, on this call.

Awesome. Thanks, everybody. Have a great weekend. Thank you for joining our happy hour.

Bye, everybody.

Take care.